Mariana is a teacher and an organizer with Climáximo, a climate justice direct action group in Portugal.
Cindy Ye and Adeline Sauberli, seniors at Stuyvesant High School, and Helena Rambler, a junior at Hunter College High School, spoke to Mariana on November 17, 2024: after the US election which brought Trump back into the White House, and before the fires in Los Angeles.
Climáximo’s approach includes a disarmament plan to stop harmful infrastructures and a peace plan for a future society.
Mariana describes the anxiety about climate change among young people in Portugal, the short window of time for phasing out fossil fuels, and the need for alternative paths to prevent climate collapse. She highlights the importance of emotions in climate activism and criticizes the disconnect between environmental education and real action, advocating for a curriculum that addresses current climate crises and solutions.
Listen to our Bridging the Carbon Gap podcast episode on Apple or Spotify:
Mariana of Climáximo 00:08
We live in a society that tells us, we live in a system that tells us that there is only one way, and we know that’s not true, but we kind of, you know, like we’re kind of being framed, the whole stories around us are being framed that there is only one way possible. So I feel like being able to understand what are the other paths that exists, and what are the other possibilities, and even if the probability is really low, you know, if you know that the path that you are doing now has 100% probability to go to climate collapse, so why not risk and try other paths? Because this one really doesn’t work,
Cindy Ye 00:58
Because climate change is not formally taught in New York City high schools, City Atlas started this podcast to connect high school students directly with experts to find out how they would design a high school curriculum for climate.
My name is Cindy. I’m a senior at Stuyvesant High School. In today’s episode, we speak with Mariana, an activist with Climáximo, a grassroots climate organization from Portugal. Climáximo’s work ranges from civil disobedience to trainings, debates and conversations surrounding climate change. Climáximo also aims to collaborate with various other climate justice groups and connect other causes like the feminist movement and the housing movement to climate activism. We’ll be hearing from Mariana on her experience working with Climáximo and her journey in activism.
Cindy Ye 01:46
In Portugal, how much awareness of climate change does the public have?
Mariana of Climáximo 01:51
So, if you look to the report that exists, terms of like, you know, like, there is a lot of at European level, there is a lot of reports about how different countries perceive climate change, and actually, in Portugal, we are one of the countries that most people, especially young people, understand that there is climate change and that are worried about it. So it’s one of the concerns that they have, and they are anxious about it.
So, we are one of the countries that have more anxiety related to climate change in terms of European level, that’s one part. But then I think, like, usually people, if you talk with somebody on the street, they will, I think like people don’t, don’t think they perceive climate change, because they perceive it in a very practical way, right? So all of us know somebody or have been in a fire. So there we have been in a fire, or we know somebody that lost their house or their lands in a wildfire. So we understand, we know, and we understand that is going to be becoming more and more and more. But if you start talking with specific wordings like climate change, 1.5 stuff like that, maybe people will not understand exactly what you’re saying. But they are worried about it, and they are worried about the impact, and they are worried about, they know that something is completely wrong with the climate. So it’s a little bit, you know, like, so it’s interesting in that sense.
And I guess, like, my last remark about this, we were having some conversations about this with other people and the reactions were really interesting, because everybody was like, yeah, that’s an issue. That is, we are so normalizing the climate change, you know, like the whole society, that you kind of have a feeling that you are the only one that’s feeling that something is odd, that something is bad, because the rest of the people, the rest of society is is going on, as though nothing is happening. You kind of have a feeling that you are alone in the feeling about the climate change, or in your perception about climate change, and everybody is with that feeling, you know.
So if you ask people, they will say in the street that, oh, most of people don’t are not aware of climate change. But that’s not true. They are aware. So that’s really interesting, because then when you do the questionnaires, when you you know, like have one on one conversations, you understand that people are aware of it, but we don’t have a perception that the society, that a lot of people are aware of it, because there is, there is not that much action on it. And I think that’s not just a thing in Portugal specifically. I think it’s a broad thing that is happening, especially in the Global North. But, yeah, but it’s something that is really interesting. My point of view.
Cindy Ye 04:45
I also think it’s really interesting, and it’s definitely global, and I do see it here a lot in New York City, and I feel that some people know the issue and understand it to an extent, not too much, but they feel as if it’s a very like hopeless cause, and have a lot of anxiety, like you mentioned. And so how do you keep hope alive among activists, the wider public and perhaps yourself, even when the climate crisis can feel so overwhelming and also full of roadblocks?
Mariana of Climáximo 05:16
I guess that it’s a matter of possibilities, right?
And so we live in a society that tells us, we live in a system that tells us that there is only one way and we know that’s not true, but we kind of are being framed. The whole stories around us are being framed that there is only one way possible. So I feel like being able to understand what are the other paths that exist, and what are the other possibilities. And even if the probability is really low, you know that the path that you are doing now have 100% probability to go to climate collapse. So why not risk and try other paths?
Because this one really doesn’t work. So I feel it’s about having those conversations that are like, there’s other paths that are possible, even if they feel like, oh, there is a really low probability that that happens, that you actually are able to go on those paths? The answer is, Yeah, but if we carry on on this one, we’re going to lose everything that we love. And the other ones, you have a possibility.
So one of the things that we have in Climáximo is this kind of idea that you need to risk everything now so that you don’t lose everything that you love, right?
So, like, it’s a little bit on these and we are really anchored on that in order to able to work with people and mobilize.
And I think the other part connected to this is that we have, we have written down a plan that we call a disarmament plan and a peace plan. So the disarmament plan, it’s about, how can we stop the infrastructures and the, all the whole system that is killing us.
So how can we, you know, what needs to change, and really specific things, like these power plants need to shut down. This agriculture needs to change in this kind of way.
So this kind of, like, really specifically, going to each area, industry and so on, but also at society level, right? We need to stop having ads from the fossil fuel industry kind of stuff, right? So really specifically, but really showing up what you know, like, what is the change that we need?
And then at the same time, then we have the peace plan that is more about, what is the society that we want to build together after we are able to stop these attacks, and we have to deal, of course, with climate crisis, because we will always have to deal with climate crisis, currently, right, but how we are going to deal with it in a different way also, so it’s a little bit, you know, like giving that really clear pathway also supports people. Because then you can have a more specific conversation, and not just like, you know, like really abstract ideas of, what does it mean, different possibilities?
Helena Rambler 08:19
On the Climáximo website, in the writing piece, there is a lot of mention of emotions, and the power of emotions. What do you think the importance of emotions in this climate conversation is, and do you think that they’re more helpful or hurtful?
Mariana of Climáximo 08:38
Well, I think they are always helpful, right? It’s when we understand the emotions that we have that we are able to act on it. And I think that there is this kind of, and I wanted to pick a little bit this point, because this is something that I’ve been fighting for, that is the need to have a feminist perspective on the climate justice movement, exactly because of this. I feel like, if, if we don’t have mature, emotional conversations, it’s impossible to solve the climate crisis. And usually this work. It’s put so the emotional work that sounds like this, it’s under appreciated, as though it’s not productive. And it’s, you know, like something that is invisible, and putting non-cis men doing it.
And it’s something that we kind of need to be much more centered in the work that we are doing. But on that note, definitely the emotions are something that moves or moves us, alright.
So before an action, you have an emotion that then leads you to an action, and you kind of need to understand what is the emotion that is leading you, and how you act on it, and how you face that emotion, right? So, a really important part specifically about how honest are we being, and the honesty about climate crisis currently, it’s not about the facts. It’s not that people don’t know.
It’s not that people don’t know that the governments are not doing what is necessary now. So we know that. We know that the companies knew it for years and decades. We know that they, you know, like that. There’s still that currently, they are in COP 29 and they are, you know, deciding to keep the fossil fuel industry. So we know this, we are not allowing ourselves to be honest about that, because we are not connecting to the emotions that come with that, because they are so overwhelming, right?
So there is a need for us to be able to connect with that and act on it, and when we actually do that, you can understand really difficult truths. So, for example, one of the things that we understood last year during this process of really connecting with that and understanding what, what are we actually saying when we understand these facts, and what actually does it mean for us, for our bodies, for our emotions, you know, and how we react on it.
And something that we kind of realize that we need to be honest about, is that the governments and the companies are killing us in a way that they have declared a war against us. So it’s not this, it’s not a situation that is like, Oh, um, they can change what they are doing. Oh, they, you know, like it’s been we have to face that, you know, in an honest way they have, they know it. They are making decisions that are killing us, and that’s so difficult at the emotional level to accept it and to act knowing that, you know, but you kind of need to be able to deal with that and to deal with that emotion of like, feeling unprotected, feeling attacked, feeling, you know, like all that kind of things, and the anxiety that comes with that, and then be able to, you know, like, move forward in a collective way.
Helena Rambler 12:11
And on the note of, like, mature conversations and talking through emotion stuff like that, is there climate education in Portugal? In schools in Portugal?
Mariana of Climáximo 12:23
There is environmental education, right? That is different from climate education. Um, when I was so, I’m a little bit, I’m much older than you are, not that much, but, but when I was in school, I remember that.
So I was, I’m coming from a generation in Portugal that was the generation that taught our parents and our grandparents to recycle. So the way that the recycling started in Portugal was through education, right? They teach the kids to recycle and pressure the kids to teach the parents and the grandparents. And it worked really well, that project.
Okay, so it was a huge, massive education project. But at the same time that that was happening, and that I was like, teaching my parents how to recycle and the importance of it, and the fact that the planet is, you know, like in danger, they decided to build four power plants, four on gas, on fossil gas in Portugal. So, you know. So it’s really effed up in that sense. Because then, like, what does it matter for me to recycle and teach the rest? If you know, like, if you instead of putting renewable energies, you’re putting these power plants that were not there, and now we are completely addicted to that kind of energy, and they say, oh, it’s not possible to change. And I’m like, Well, you know, that’s that was a choice, you know, like, that’s not because it’s how it is.
So I think, like, the reason there is an education projects, but they are really disconnected from what actually we need to do, and what actually, you know, like, is really connected to this kind of, like, blaming and shaming people on their daily, busy choice that are not actually choices that we have, because it’s a process that we have around us. It’s, it depends on how much money you have.
It depends on your working situation, it depends on so many different things, you know, it depends if there is public transportation, decent public transportation, where you live or not, you know, so you’re not, you’re not able to have those choices, although they put that pressure on you.
So I think the education system is really based on that. And the only thing that kind of changed this discourse was the fact that there were Fridays for Future in Portugal and at international level also, and they have been doing a really good work on like going to the schools and talking with with kids in high schools, in elementary schools, but also in university schools. And even now, they still, you know, like they’re still doing that and doing a lot of actions that kind of empower youth in a different way about how we perceive climate change, and what can we do? And what does it mean climate change education, right? But it’s not like something that the state is doing.
Helena Rambler 15:18
Do you think that like this is enough, or if you were to add anything to, let’s say, the curriculum, what would you add?
Mariana of Climáximo 15:25
We actually had some, so in the last two years, if I’m not mistaken, there were school occupations in Portugal for ending fossil fuels and one of the things that was being done was alternative classes about climate change and about society and so on. So we kind of had those conversations happening.
I would say that in a general answer, let’s say like this, because you can, you know, like, we could be talking about education for a long time, and I’m a teacher, so, like, it’s something that, for me, it’s really interesting. But I will say that for anyone that is studying currently, their life during studying is the period that they can fight to stop climate collapse. You know, because we have, what, five years, that’s more or less the time that you are studying, if you’re studying currently, so you like, these years, it’s not supposed that you are teaching how to, you know, like, general what with which king kill which other king, or, you know, this kind of stuff. You need to be teaching what the current situation is in terms of climate change, and what are we going to do and how we’re going to fight it.
You need to be much more clear about, so sorry, of course, you need to have any historical background, but like, understanding really much more like, how change happened, how movements worked, how, you know, like, what is colonialism? What is imperialism? What is feminism? What is, you know, like, what is capitalism? This kind of stuff, why we are where we are. What is the fossil industry? What are the other solutions? How can we develop those technologies? So this kind of stuff, but most of all, and I guess, like the minimal, this will be, like the perfect curriculum, right?
But like, the minimum will be to be talking about, to be honest about, what is happening, and that is not even happening, you know, like the person that is studying goes to the school and is really anxious about the climate crisis and is fighting for it. The teachers are like, Oh, you’re not doing you know, like, you need to care about your future. You need to study. You’re like, What are you saying? The fact that he’s doing stuff about climate change is much more caring about his future or her future or their future that you know, like that study for that class, and you kind of need to support that, and you need to be, you know, like to you need to be honest about that the school needs should be a much more place for people to for, for people now to be able to develop themselves and to learn, but at the same time that is based on this reality that we are living in, that understands that we have only these five years to change stuff, and that’s, you know, like people need to be able to do that.
Adeline Sauberli 18:32
And you spoke earlier about your movement having trainings as part of the framework of your movement. So I’m thinking for other adults in the climate justice space, has anyone ever been resistant to a certain training, and have you ever seen someone change their mind from that sort of training, education focus, just for other adults? What has been the benefit of having trainings like that and changing conversations in your movement?
Mariana of Climáximo 19:05
Yeah, so, I guess, usually we have two different kinds of trainings, right? So one is more like really practical trainings, like action trainings, how to facilitate a meeting. Trainings, you know, this kind of like, really get your hands on it. Kind of trainings, um, and those usually are really work really well, because people feel empowered, right? And they feel like, oh, there’s actually something that I can do.
Um, when it’s more about like, the trainings about, like, climate crisis, about politics, you know, we have, for example, one that is capitalism versus climate, this kind of stuff. So usually it really depends what is the stage that the person is, right. So we kind of have this understanding that it’s like you have a first stage that you are just confused.
You know, when you start to understand, your reaction is just, you’re confused. It’s like, how, what? No, wait, what are you? What do you mean? You know, like this kind of, like you are just like this confusion of, like, how the eff, what is happening? You know, like this kind of, like, really confusing situation, and then you go to a place, usually that is like, either you can enter in in fear, right? And then on that fear, you can have different reactions to it.
So you can, you know, like, start being really angry. You can start avoiding it and not want to talk anymore about it. You can, you know, like, you can just, you know, like, want to change the subject you might want just to, you know, like, just become completely frozen and not be able to process anything else, but also not being able to move on from that conversation. And just like, you know, like becoming really anxious on it. So it really depends, right?
And then you also have a moment where you kind of, like, accept the reality and start thinking about, okay, so what we do, you know, like, what are the next steps? Like, how do we act on this? You know, like, what is possible or not, and so on and so on, and then it comes the whole situation of really depends.
What are our values before this conversation started, right? Where are you based? What are your values based? Does this conversation challenge your values? For example, if you have, if you think that private property is something that is really, really important to treasure, maybe there are some conversations about climate change that you’re going to be more difficult to have. Because if I say, like, oh, Elon Musk should not have that level of private jets and many other things. But let’s just, like, put it like that, people will be like, Oh no, but he has a right because of this and that. So it really depends where people are on those, where are you in the process of understanding the climate crisis, but also, what are the values that you have?
But I feel like it’s always possible to have those conversations and in the end, if you’re able to, like everybody in the end, we are not bad people, you know. Like, there is this kind of idea that is like, Oh, this is happening because human beings, humanity are bad and stuff like that. We are greedy and so on.
Like, usually people are not bad, people, right? We care about community. We want to protect ourselves. We want to protect the ones that we love, so you kind of need to just challenge what it means to the ones that we love, who is in and out of that other, you know, like what it means and the community, what it’s what does it mean? Who is attacking you? What is an attack or not? So those places where you need to, to challenge the conversations and so on, but the basis is there to be able to help those conversations.
So I kind of feel like there is a lot of people that change, and there’s a lot of people that change from one of the places to another, and sometimes it takes more time, because they kind of, you know, like they first need to be confused and scared and eventually deal with that, and then they come back and, you know, like, so it really depends where you are.
But we were doing some trainings in senior universities, and that was really interesting to be working, you know, like people, like really old people, and they were just like, Yeah, you are completely right. And then the conversation is completely different. That is like, should, should I be the one doing it, or should be the youth people doing it? And I’m not. I’m too old for this, you know. Like, what can I do? So it really depends.
But, um, but, yeah, I feel like it’s a powerful tool if it’s connected with an action. You know, if you give a training and you don’t connect it with an action, it can be really disempowering, because then you just let you know, like you just have this really huge load with you, and you’re not able to do anything about it, and it becomes overwhelming. So I feel that’s the most important thing, especially with adults, because I kind of feel like when you’re young, you act no matter what, when you have the you know, like when you understand, you start acting. But when you are older, you have too many things in your life that already told you that you don’t have the power to act. So when you have something new, you are not able to act immediately. You’re becoming really just stuck on that information and those emotions.
Helena Rambler 24:34
You’ve kind of touched on this. But what inspired you to become a climate activist, and why do you care so much?
Mariana of Climáximo 24:42
I was doing a lot of work related to human rights, and about justice, and justice work. So I was not, I wasn’t working on climate before. I was working more in education, more around feminists rights. So, different things. And I guess I came to an understanding that all of that will be, even if I fight and I do the best work possible in any of those topics, it’s impossible to have feminism in climate collapse. So we kind of need to stop this with those perspectives and with those you know, like with those approaches. But I think that’s why I’m focusing now on climate justice issues.
Helena Rambler 25:27
Kind of zooming out, how do you think Portugal is doing overall?
Mariana of Climáximo 25:32
So if you ask some people, they will tell you Portugal is a leader in Europe, because I know, like the other countries are so bad we need to stop, we need to cut all our image. So in order to stay below 1.5 or 2 degrees, you kind of need to have carbon neutrality in 2050 right? So that means that in 2049 the only country that is emitting will be like Burkina Faso, that has no responsibilities, you know, like, and and so on.
So in terms of historical responsibilities, that means that, if you go back, going back the years, that means that in 2030 most of the countries in Europe, including Portugal, should not have any emissions.
So that’s where we are, right? And then that means that in the next year, 2025 we need to stop using gas in Portugal.
That is not happening, right? So in that sense, if you look to the reality on those in really practical way, like, let’s look to what, let’s look to what is necessary to be doing. There is no plan that they are doing that sounds like currently, there is no party, political party, that is presenting a plan that is compatible with the climate crisis in Portugal, but I’m pretty sure in Global North, I’m not so sure about Global South, but I can say with 100% certainty that in Portugal, no, and 90% certain that in the Global North, no.
So that’s basically what is happening. So that means that given the time that we have, and given the electoral time that exists, right? And now, especially in the US, you have that problem, right? We have now Trump for some years now, if, if nothing has changed. So that means that the work that will be done, and who has to change, is us, right? The five of us that are in this room. So it’s up to us doing the change that we need in society and in the world. It’s not like they are going to do it. So it’s in that sense if in Portugal, now we are in more in the social movement place. I guess that we are not that bad, hopefully, but we will have a big march next Saturday, and depending on that, I can better answer your question how that goes. So get back to me in a few days, and then I will let you know better.
Cindy Ye 28:23
I know that Portugal’s power grid has run on 100% renewable energy for periods of a week. Is that commonly known? And do people in Portugal talk about this?
Mariana of Climáximo 28:33
Yeah, so that’s one of our biggest fights, right? Is to have 100% renewable electricity in Portugal. That’s what I was saying, that we need to have until next year. So in one year time, and people know about it, and we kind of, we know that we have a huge, huge capability in terms of, like, solar power, wind power, you know, like, it’s the problem is that they kind of, they were able to to sell this lie that we need the gas to have the stability to electricity. That is not true. We can have that by hydro power and by other ways. And technically it’s not true.
So, yeah, but in society, the perception is that, so although we have so much, you know, like we are able, as you were saying, to stay for days and days only with solar power, with the renewable energy, although technically it’s possible to do that, there is still an understanding in society and a fear of losing the gas, because then we’re going to lose the stability somehow, as if the gas will leave a stability and protect us.
So that’s, you know, like, that’s the biggest side that we’re trying to fight against. So, yeah, so that’s the problem, right? But people know about it. And actually, there are a lot of people that want to put solar panels in their houses, and it’s really difficult because of the markets. So there we’re trying to have organical, trying to have democracy and democratic energy systems so that people, you know, like are the ones that are managing the energy and so on. But there is a huge pushback from the companies to not allow that, because then they will lose, you know, like, their power and that monopoly on the energy sector that is one of the most important monopolies in the current system.
Helena Rambler 30:44
Compared to Portugal or in the general, I guess, scope of the world, how do you think the United States is doing in terms of climate change?
Mariana of Climáximo 30:52
Bad. Really bad. US, It’s an imperialist country right? It has a lot of power in the world. It controls a lot of the things that are happening all around the world. It’s one of the countries that has more responsibility on stopping the climate crisis, but also, at the same time, is one of the countries that are not going to do it at all, or not going to, you know, like this, not I’m not talking about being possible. I’m talking about the current, you know, like the current people in power will not allow it, you know. And I was actually having an interesting conversation yesterday with a friend from New York about Trump winning and you know, like, how is that affecting? And I’m really sorry for it, by the way, but at the same time we were talking about, like, Okay, so in terms of, like, climate crisis, like, the discussion that we are having at European, like in Europe, is that even if it was Kamala in terms of climate crisis, will not be that different, you know, so, and that’s, that’s much more worry for me, you know, like, how is it possible that there is no solution, no alternative in that sense? So it’s really, it’s really up to the people to do the change that is necessary.
It’s impossible, you know, like, we cannot wait for them to do it anymore. The US has a huge power in terms of workforce, in terms of social movement. So if something happens in terms of the social movement in US, it spreads to all over the world. So if, in one way, it’s a country that, in terms of the one that is making the decisions, is really, really not doing what is necessary, and is really, you know, like pressing the accelerator to the climate collapse. On the other way, it has a huge potential of having social mobilization and social movements that can stop this, and that can, you know, spark and put on fire the rest of the world in a good way. You know, like fire in terms of, like social power and social energy.
And it’s a really interesting place, because, as you know, at the same time that you are in the Global North, you are one of the countries that are more affected by the climate crisis. That is a little bit different from Europe. We are more, you know, like, in terms of the climate we are not being that much affected, and the US is being currently completely devastated by the climate crisis, possibility of people being really angry about it, there is a lack of answers for those that are angry, that is being analyzed to the wrong ways.
Helena Rambler 33:45
Okay, this is kind of like a question that is almost impossible to answer, because I think if there was an answer, then we could solve it. But why do you think people don’t care or don’t express their worry about climate change?
Mariana of Climáximo 34:03
It depends how people perceive what climate change means, right? And the problem is that the mainstream idea of the climate change movement, it’s really technical somehow. So we are talking about 1.5, 2 degrees, you know, like, what the…what is that? What we mean, you know, like, people don’t understand what’s that? What does that mean? You’re talking about the energy sector, transport sector, industry sector, and most of us are disconnected from it. Or if you are connected to it, you are too inside of it. You know, like your work depends on it, your life depends on it.
So either you are too disconnected, or you depend on it. Those conversations are really difficult to have, that the challenge that we are, that we have in front of us is, how do we connect people to what actually means climate crisis, in terms of the wildfires, in terms of the floods, in terms of the hurricanes, in terms of the deaths because it’s too hot, this kind of stuff and that people relate to, because then what we’re talking about health, we’re talking about housing, we’re talking about racism, we’re talking about, you’re talking about things that people are dealing with in everyday life.
So I think that’s the connection that is up to the organizers of the climate justice movement to be able to do that, so that people understand that what we are saying is on something about the future. It’s not something about technical issues now. It’s about our daily lives now and how they’re being affected by it, and how they will be more affected by it. And what are you fighting for, and what do you care about? And I think that’s the major issue.
So on one hand, this idea that we’re talking about the future and not the present, while actually we are talking about the present. So currently there is climate crisis happening in horrible ways, and that we need to be talking much more about it, and so that people understand that, you know, like that house that they lost, and the fact that they’re being, you know, like the place where they are living doesn’t have the conditions that they need, and so on is, you know, like, it’s the consequences of this, or is related to it, or it’s going to be worse because of this, you know, like, so that’s one part of it, and then the other part, taking off the conversation about technical issues and putting has, like, political issues that it’s not about if it’s possible or not because it’s possible. It’s about, you know, like, who is making the decisions, why, you know, like, and so on, so on, how we are going to take that power and have the power to make the change.
So I guess it’s a little bit those two, those two parts that I wanted to say, and that if you’re able to do that, you know. So in Portugal, currently, what we are doing is that we are saying to society that they need to stop consenting to the climate crisis. We need to stop, we need to stop normalizing this. We need to stop expecting the companies and the governments to do it. We need to stop saying that this is the normal thing, the fact that we are, you know, like in the winter here, and it’s almost 30 degrees, not winter, no. But near winter, and it is supposed to be 10 degrees, and it’s 30 degrees for days and days and days, what is happening, you know, like, so it’s, really people understand that.
It’s not that we don’t understand, because you’re feeling it every day, you know? So, so, yeah, so that’s how we stop normalizing it, and how we make that agreement with the whole society and act on it.
Adeline Sauberli 37:33
So would you say that your focus and your messaging is more on people who sort of have accepted that climate change is an issue, instead of people who you know, for some reason or other, don’t engage with the climate change conversation at all, and when you’re talking with other movements in Portugal or just around you, what are your priorities for bringing those people who do care together and like engaging them, pushing people towards action?
Mariana of Climáximo 38:05
Yeah, definitely, to the first question. So after all the work that has been done, if you still are denying, it’s going to be really difficult for me to change your mind, and I think it’s only going to be possible for you to change your mind when we have more power, with the level of power that I have now, I will not going to be able to change our mind, and that’s okay.
But the problem is with people that understand what is happening, they are not organized enough and mobilized enough, because they don’t feel that there are possibilities. They don’t feel that they have the power to change stuff, so that’s where we need to act on it, right? Like, what are the possibilities? What are the things that we can do?
And how can we act on it and give the that energy and give that pathways so that we can have a much more powerful movement that then is able to change other minds, and is able to change what’s accepted in society and neutralize people that are deniers, even, even if they don’t stop being deniers, at least they are not realized somehow. So that’s a little bit and I think, like, in terms of other movements, I’m not like, I don’t think that all of us should be talking about the climate crisis, in a sense. We need to be talking about racism. We need to be talking about feminism. We need to be talking, you know, like that issue is, what is your deadline to win? You know, what is the time that you’re working? Do your strategies, are they inside of the climate deadlines?
Because of a lot of the problem, a lot of the time, this organization, like the unions, the labor work, you know, like the organizations around labor, feminism and so on, so on, the kind of working, like, on 20 year time, 50 years time, you know, like that, they’re going to do it small changes. And I’m like, yeah, if there were not a climate crisis, but now we have a climate crisis. So even if you’re working on that, you need to work inside of the reality, you know, like you cannot work in an idealistic world. We need to work on a materialistic world, like the reality that we are living in.
So I think it’s about that, what is the agreement that we can do in terms of, like, the context that we are living in, and how does that change our strategies? How does that mean that everything that we did in the past, we cannot carry on doing it so and how we are able to be honest about it, you know. Like a union labor that has been doing the work in the last 20 years, it’s been really good work, not complaining, amazing. But in climate crisis, that strategy doesn’t work. You need to have a different strategy, and you need to be honest about it. So, you know, like, that’s the challenge, to have those conversations. So it’s not like, Oh, you need to stop working on that issue, and you need to be talking about the climate crisis. No, it’s like, you need to be working in the context of the climate crisis. Because the climate crisis is not an issue, it is the context that we live in.
Helena Rambler 41:11
This is more about your experience in kind of working with activism. But have you had any moments of either, like, a really inspiring moment that kind of pushed you and inspired you to not give up, or a moment of pushback where it almost made you question what you were doing?
Mariana of Climáximo 41:30
My moments of inspiration are usually when I see people in a situation where I’m like, I have no idea how, how I would survive that, and then people have so much energy and happiness and, you know, and power. And I’m like, Yeah, that’s this. I remember, I think, the first time that I really felt that I was preparing a conference at international level. And one of the persons that I was working with was in the Philippines, and they stop answering my emails, and then they sent me emails saying, Hey, I’m sorry. I was out without internet for some days because my whole village was flooded and because of a hurricane but now I’m back, and I carry on working on the conference. And I was like, what? Wait.
But I guess, like, it’s a little bit that, right? It’s like, yeah, that’s, this is the reality that we are living in and, like we are fighting against it, and having that solidarity and community.
So that’s a little bit the inspiration. The moments that I feel that I have less motivation more like this is sometimes in places where everybody is already giving up. And that happens a lot also with other organize organizers, right, that you are in a conference, or you are in a meeting, or you’re talking with another organization, and you are listening to what they are saying, and all of them have given up. They are not saying that, they are still fighting, but all of them, they don’t believe. They don’t see that it’s possible. They don’t, you know, like they don’t, they are so depressed, and it’s, it’s okay to be depressed. Sometimes, you know, like it’s okay to feel that, it’s okay to to feel grieved. It’s okay. It’s part of it. It’s part of the process. But I guess, like, we need to be able to in each moment that we are feeling that, to be able to connect again with the beauty of the world, and to connect again with the with the people that we love and kind of understand what we are doing this so that we keep on being able to keep on and have strategies and have conversations that you know, like that. We are not just doing that to sleep well at night.
But actually, we are doing that because we know that, you know, like that there is that possibility, and are fighting for it, and I guess, like, when I’m when I’m when I’m losing, that is when I’m, you know, like, I feel more. Maybe this is impossible. Maybe I will just read a book and stay in my house and, you know, like and not do anything else. But then again, I have other moments where I feel inspired and I am able to carry on, and I guess that’s going to be part of our lives in the next years, right?
Helena Rambler 44:37
Kind of shifting gears a little bit. This is a more theoretical question. But if all politicians were to listen to you, or all business owners, if everyone were to listen to you, what laws or policies or actions would you take?
Mariana of Climáximo 44:55
End fossil fuels, 2030.
Helena Rambler 44:59
How would you go about doing that? Would you completely cut off all production, or would you phase it out?
Mariana of Climáximo 45:06
Yeah, so I think that it really depends if it is happening now, like in this year, from this year now on, you have five years, right? It’s possible to do phasing out of stuff, and you need to understand what are, for example, you need to understand, what are the things that are more necessary to maintain, like, hospital, schools, stuff like that, that need to have, you know, like the energy.
But then what are the things that are not that much necessary, you know, like, there is so much energy going to ads don’t need that, you know, like, so, that kind of stuff. So I kind of need to understand, what are the first things that you cut out because they are not necessary? What are the things that you do it more slowly, you know, and how do you build alternatives while you’re doing that? The same thing with transportation, you know, like, you need to put public transportation that is affordable, that is accessible to people, that answers to the needs of the people, and to be able to cut the cars. So how you do that?
So there is that, that, and I think, like a lot of the, a lot of the answers we need to have, in a way that we are talking with the communities, and that we are talking about what is actually necessary, what are the actually the basic needs that we need to protect, and what are the things that we can, you know, like, somehow let it go for a while, until we are able to, you know, like, have more energy, or, you know, like more resources and so on, so on. So I think it’s a little bit that, and all of us are able to do those conversations, right? So, yeah, I will say that is that, but I don’t think that will be the government or the companies doing that in a way that they will not give up their profits and from the status that they have, and from the power that they have. We kind of need to take that from them.
Cindy Ye 47:04
And you mentioned before how the government told this lie that gas is a pillar of stability and protection for society. Can you expand more on that? I’m just really curious. How does the government go about doing that?
Mariana of Climáximo 47:19
Well, there is the branding of natural gas, right? As gas being something that is natural, then, I’m not saying that it’s not natural, but oil is also natural, coal is also natural, right? So it’s not like, what we mean with natural? Yeah, you’re taking from the nature. Let’s say like this. You know, like in that sense, yes, you’re extractivism, but it’s not like, it’s not, it has the same impact as the other ones. So I guess, like, that’s part of the narrative, right? That they were able to build, and they were able to build a narrative that somehow gas helps less emissions and the coal and oil. So that means that if it has less emissions, that is better. And I guess, like if you are comparing the first level, but how? So, what are you saying? So I think it’s a little bit, what is the comparison that you are doing, right?
But they were able to really sell that, and of course, they are, because that’s the biggest mafia that we have, is the fossil fuel industry. So it’s, how do you overcome that, right? And I think there was a really good work that social movements were able to do to kind of change and contour this narrative of natural gas to fossil gas.
And I think that is something that is more present nowadays, and particularly in Portugal, right? And people understand that it’s not something that is good? But somehow, every time that you try to talk about, well, we don’t need this, then you always have some kind of specialist that actually is a politician and is not a specialist that is talking about how gas is necessary to give stability. And they use these words that scare people, right? But you’re going to lose stability. If you don’t have it, you’re going to lose, you know, like you’re going to be unprotected, and people don’t want that. So they kind of, you know, like they kind of mix with the feelings and the things that people care about, that is being protected, that have stability, that have, you know, like this kind of stuff. And then they tell you a complete lie.
So, yeah, and, and then, of course, like, here you have the problem of media, who has, who is on the TV, who is talking, who has access to that, who has the specialist, and who is has been put as the vandal and the criminal and so on and so on. So like, how the story is being told, and who has the power to tell the stories?
So that’s the machine that they have, right? That’s the power that they have in that sense. And, yeah, and then you, you need to do the work knowing that. But I guess, I guess that that’s the issue. But one of the things that was really interesting. Like, last two years ago, we had a huge campaign against gas, and we were able to put all of the major opinion makers in Portugal saying that, yeah, it’s technically possible to not use gas. And that was a big win, right? Because they said, like, the only problem is political. Basically, we’re saying this, it’s not possible politically talking. It’s possible, technically talking, and that shifts the opinion right, that shift what is normalized or accepted in society. Because then people understood, oh, wait, actually, it’s possible, but they are not, you know, like that. There are interests that don’t allow it. So that’s where we are now. And we were able, because there was a lot of push to counter narrative the conversation that was happening.
Helena Rambler 51:14
Great. Thank you. And so far, have they had any citizen assemblies in Portugal?
Mariana of Climáximo 51:22
Hmm, um, no, we don’t have it. There is, like this kind of, like municipalities, assemblies that any person that lives in a place can go and and, you know, like talk and so on. We have that for some time. And the social movements usually do popular assemblies that are not citizen assemblies, right? Like popular assemblies, in a sense, like anyone can go and make decisions together and so on. But the idea of the citizen assembly that you had, for example, in France and in other countries, we in Portugal, we haven’t had that.
Helena Rambler 51:58
Great. Thank you so much. I mean, that’s kind of all the questions that we have. But do you have any questions for us?
Mariana of Climáximo 52:08
Yes. Um, so I wanted to know a little bit what, what you have been up to, what are you working on, and how has been your connection to climate courses, and also, how it’s been, how do you end up here, in this, in this podcast today, talking with me?
Helena Rambler 52:26
So this podcast has been going on for a while, and it’s been mostly student led, the students interview people, and then we edit the audios, and then we publish these podcasts, you know, on Spotify or any other podcast platform. And we’ve we’ve been interviewing experts and professors, scientists from many different fields, in order to get a broad amount of perspectives. And me, personally, I got involved through my school because it’s been like a thing being passed down through my school. So like older kids have, once they’ve graduated, they’ve passed it down, and it’s just kind of been a community thing.
Adeline Sauberli 53:29
For me, around the city, I’m involved in some of the different orgs, and you mentioned Fridays for Future, and we have our own version of that in the city. And it’s really exciting, actually, because a lot of these are other people my age who are involved in organizing trips to Washington, DC or other things like that.
But I also, you know, I, I’ve been really learning a lot from you about how to think about how many organizations there are trying to address this problem, and how we can sort of unite them, because we were reading your piece in or the piece in Climáximo about how we can use emotion to sort of fix this rift between climate organizations, and so that’s something I’ve been thinking about a lot. That’s also why I feel like I’ve learned so much from you about the importance of trainings and education, because I think in the US, that’s not as much of an emphasis in our organizations. We don’t spend that much time making sure everyone is really skilled up and on the same page, or at least having conversations about how we how we can better teach climate education, how we can better understand it, like if people don’t talk about the theory of it as often as we do action planning.
Cindy Ye 54:51
For me, I think I’m relatively new still to activism, and climate activism, especially, but when you mentioned the stages of how people react when you’re learning about climate change, I think I’m just at that stage where it’s just the feelings that you have. I’m looking for ways to channel them, and this is what I hope this podcast will do for me.
Helena Rambler 55:15
And just really quickly, also another kind of aspect of this podcast that we wanted to promote was, at least, I’m not sure about all schools, but at least in my school, I don’t have a climate class. So this podcast was set up in a way to kind of replace that, and set up a climate curriculum. And you know, it’s really great to just be able to speak to all these people. Because instead of it being like a set, you know, books given to you or whatever, having firsthand accounts in conversations is just really interesting and really educational and inspiring.
Mariana of Climáximo 55:54
Yeah, that’s awesome, yeah. And that’s really nice that you’re doing that work and also working on other stuff at the same time. And I guess, like, well, I will say that I will be more than happy to connect you with the group that is doing a lot of actions in terms of high schools and schools now, and what they have been doing, because they have now, like a really interesting work that they are trying to do.
They are doing, like, a lot, a lot of sessions in the school six months, so you could be interested in, like, talking with them and understand what you know, like, what, how the sessions are going and so on. Like, they are asking the students in different schools to sign a letter so that they have, like students from all over Lisbon signing the same letter to ask the government to to end fossil fuel in 2030 and there is a lot of mobilization around that.
So I think that will be really nice also for other people to listen and like to know about that, and be more than glad to connect you. And I guess, like the other question that I have from my side, it was more like, how do you, you know, like, you had the elections not that long ago, right? I’m not even sure how old you like if you were able to vote? And actually, that’s some of the conversations that we have already at Climáximo, that is like the people that are most affected by the decisions that are being made now are not being able to vote on those decisions. Like, who is making the decision? What are the decisions that are being made?
So I don’t know how you know, like, how you see that? I was curious about that. And also, like, how do you see the next years, giving you know, like, there is Trump and and the challenge that it comes in terms of, like, climate crisis. So if you had any thoughts that you wanted to, that you’d like to share, I’ll be more than glad to hear.
Adeline Sauberli 57:46
I was able to vote in this last election because I turned 18, just a few days before the election. And one thing that we know, that I agree with you, is that in high school, that’s like the perfect location to have these conversations, you know, like when we’re at school, like people you know, be talking about this and then, and then be motivated to vote for change and vote for, like, positive climate action.
And we know that in the US, just as you said in Portugal, there’s no political party really that is making climate justice like a core part of their platform, like, it’s not emphasized and and even the Democratic Party doesn’t see that as something that they need to reiterate in order to win or anything.
So high schoolers have a big ability. If we were part of the voting group, I think that would make a big difference, and it’s sad that we don’t. But I know a lot of us are worried about this specific presidency, just because of the deadlines that you’ve been talking about how we need to take action within the next four years, and those four years are going to be under this presidency.
But I mean, at the same time, it would have been difficult to push, like our Democratic president, to take climate action at the same time, because in every debate, it was always we can still expand fracking and also push towards renewable energy. So I think it’s like a huge shift in the political conversation that we need to have in the US that is like, not only unique to Trump.
Helena Rambler 59:21
I think also this past election, was kind of worrisome for me, not only because, you know, we’ll basically do nothing to help also, I think the fact that so many people supported him, and so many people in the US either don’t understand climate change, don’t care about it, or even sometimes they have, like, malicious intent. There was one debate that I was watching where there’s like, a whole chant that started, a chance started that was like, like, drilling and getting more oil, and it just, it’s kind of scary to me, just seeing how much of the world in particular, how much of the United States, is so oblivious and choose to ignore a climate crisis.
Cindy Ye 1:00:14
I definitely agree with what Helena and Adeline said, and not it’s just the sort of wave of emotion that just keeps on coming, even after the election results, seeing Trump’s appointments for the administration on energy and how he describes climate change and his whole like stand on Climate tech and how he wants to, like, shut it down. It’s just more and more disappointments building up.
Mariana of Climáximo 1:00:49
Thank you for sharing it. And I think, like, I don’t want to steal a lot of more time from your side, but I also wanted to say, like, that’s like, what US is coming now through it’s really important that the social movements in US don’t like, you know, like, because sometimes I feel like in US, like the because also like US is huge, right? It’s really, you know, it really becomes closed-in in itself. And I think it’s also, like, really important that we kind of, like, have the connections between like US and Europe in terms of, like, the social movements, so that we can also, like, you know, like, inspire and give power and support each others.
Through these times, it can be hard to see the change when it’s, you know, like, when you’re just focusing on one place, and then when you actually have that broader view, and you’re able to, you know, like, have those conversations and share that, but also like, do strategy together and and so on, you kind of, you kind of feel much more power. And you kind of feel much more like, you know, like possibilities and what is possible or not. And you can then use also that work for, like, your local work and so on. So I would say that definitely, for from my side, I’m more than welcome to stay in touch in that sense, and also, like, if you need anything, because I feel like that’s really important. And a little bit like the thing that I was saying in terms of, like, inspiration and so on. I don’t know where you get your inspiration, because it really depends. But sometimes, you know, like, sometimes we just need to hear a good story, or we just need to, you know, like to know somebody that is having a really difficult situation, but it’s like, you know, like, with a lot of energy and and inspired and just like sharing that can, like, the difference between us being able to carry on or not, and I feel that’s really important for us to be able to share with each other. So yeah, I’m also in myself and also Climáximo, more than happy to be in touch, in that sense, to give that support.
Helena Rambler 1:02:53
Thank you so much. It’s been so great. Speaking to you. I’ve personally learned so much, and thank you.
Cindy Ye
Thank you
Mariana of Climáximo 1:03:00
Thank you for inviting me. It was really nice.
Adeline Sauberli 1:03:04
Thank you so much.
Mariana is co-author of a new book about climate action, All In, reviewed below by Andreas Malm:
